So, Last Herald Mage TV show?

[rymenhild]

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is fascinated, and also apprehensive, about the news that a Valdemar TV show is in the works and that the first planned season will be Vanyel's story.

There are so very many ways this could go wrong... but it also reminds me how deep my Feelings about Vanyel and Stef and Tylendel and Yfandes go. Here's a discussion post -- I'd love to hear any Feelings any of you have about this! Here's to our sparkly tragic gay Herald-Mage!

Comments

[rymenhild]

First change I want: let's make this series queerer. More gay, bi, pan characters, ideally with a community around them. Second: keep the dramaaaatic angggggst but... modulate it maybe? Third: more consensual sex, less rape.

I could keep going, but at some point I would do better writing my own AU. Or rereading the ones you all wrote.

[thene]

Agree - it's nice to have Starwind & Moondance over in the corner but the whole vibe that creates is that Van's queer community is off in some vacation spot and he's isolated the rest of the time, which is just not pleasant or realistic. And yeah, the only bi character in canon (Nevis) is a really biphobic portrayal, which also means there's negativity around sexual fluidity, period.

I feel like - not least bc of the 'less rape' point - the only way it's likely to come off well as a TV show is if it riffs a long, long way away from canon, esp after Pawn, and makes up some of its own plots about Van's adventures. Because where the LHM shines is the interiority, and Van's narrative voice as he works through his trauma & dissociation. And even then lbr, we are here picking & choosing which parts of it to run off with and rip up to make glorious fanfiction collages out of, while ignoring all the random ick that doesn't even make sense (like Ylna Mavelan, I have never seen anyone in the fandom say a word about Ylna Mavelan - this is just one random example I can think of off the top of my head). I guess it might work if it's just Magic's Pawn but then I would be pissy abt the lack of Stef, obv.

[thene]

I am going to be over here with my hands over my eyes praying it dies in production hell ngl. I really don't mean to be a buzzkill if anyone is looking forward to it - I would love to be wrong but sooooo many trepidations.

I barely watch TV anyway - the last show I got interested in was Sense8 (RIP but damn it's a phenomenal show if you're looking for a huge queer magical crew). What I really love in the LHM is the way Van's dissociation and bereavement trauma is portrayed. I don't expect to see that come across well on TV. Would love to be wrong, but. (Lbr I don't trust anyone except you guys with my Deep Feelings on this).

I spoke about this with nakki a couple of weeks ago and the biggest thing is, we are both concerned about how they might handle the Tayledras bc frankly their whole canon portrayal is a huge racist cariacature of old white opinions about indigenous people.

ALSO like - why the LHM, why now? Like I am saying this as someone who has 20 years of unresolved issues with/love for this sodding book, but in a big picture sense it is really fucking weird that we are living in a golden age of diverse queer SFF and instead some studio wants to pick up this awkward white cis lady book from 1989? Why not something queer that speaks to more recent times and issues, like A Taste of Honey, or An Unkindness of Ghosts, or The Drowning Girl, or A Spectral Hue, or The Devourers, or Phoenix Extravagant, or The Vanished Birds, or The Winged Histories, or (so fucking help me) The Parable Of The Talents which came out in 1998 and has way more present queer (and every other kind of) relevance? I have done nothing but read queer books for 17 months and wow do I have some opinions about what gets picked up by studios. It's not even just the very weird identity stereotypes that got encoded in the LHM, but also its Reagan-era politics... Given how much TV and film studios shape the SFF canon in the minds of most people, I would really like to see the new wave of queer SFF by authors of colour get a foot in the door because it has so much to say about what's going on in our world right now. And yet.

...and even if an LHM TV show somehow goes right we would have to deal with Modern Fandom. that makes me feel like an old lady sat on my porch with a shotgun. to be fair the main reason I p much refuse to talk about the LHM with anyone except you guys is that people are always dismissive of stories about queer characters dying. Hi, a) this was written in the late 1980s and b) I read it when I was 16 years old and queer and absolutely fucking flattened by bereavement trauma because my mother was dead, and I promise you that the queer bereavement content is actually the best damn thing about this book.

[pennie_dreadful]

CO FUCKING SIGNED

[rymenhild]

Yeah. No argument here on any of your points.

I just binge reread a bunch of Valdemar books and... it was so disorienting comparing the actual books to the ones in my head. Seriously, Firesong, you're really anxious about finding a boyfriend because so few people are gay? You mean 75% of Tayledras, Shin'a'in, and Kaled'a'in aren't pansexual? They definitely are in my head!

[thene]

YEAH. And the Heralds? Who are supposed to be hedonistic? How are they not all bi af.
The last book I finished was First, Become Ashes by KM Szpara, which a) is incandescently gay and kinky and goes in for absolutely ridonculous BDSM/dubcon magic stuff, if you're up for that, and b) everyone is queer in some way, that's way more realistic lbr

[rymenhild]

Gonna use your comments as a reading list!

[thene]

:D mission success! A Taste Of Honey by Kai Ashante Wilson might be the one I most rec to LHM people because a) it will absolutely fucking drag you emotionally and also b) we can tolerate fake happy endings around here. Alternatively, for the eternal loop of love & death & choices, Godmother Night by Rachel Pollack is absolutely beautiful. my strategy of late is just to ignore books by white cis people - i am a white cis people and I've had enough of this shit.

[mad_martha]

...and even if an LHM TV show somehow goes right we would have to deal with Modern Fandom.
Oof. This. *brandishes cane at the kids on my lawn*

[blue_jay_jay]

My thoughts on 'why now' are that People in Charge are usually painfully unaware and super behind the times, but the notion that straight heroes fighting and evil gay villain is Kinda Problematic Now has finally penetrated. The lizard thought-process goes- "If we had a Gay Hero who fights Gay Villains (Krebain, Laereth) that is like Symmetry and Good Storytelling!! The kid's'll love it!" And as to why Misty when we have all these cool new authors is because they are new, Misty may not have Game of Thrones kinds of numbers but she is more of a Sure Thing as far as empty suits are concerned.

I have lots of Feelings about the Tayledras, but I think they could be done well if handled delicately. The whole "Magical Mystical Native" is still a better trope than the "Blood-thirsty Savages" one so some progress is better than none I guess? But it struck me the images Misty painted of the Vales being a lush haven of jungle tucked into northern deciduous forests, lush with tropical flowers and parrots all over the joint. And their garb is described as being sometimes hard to tell from plants so if the scouts are in camouflage and the mages look like Lady Gaga decided to go hardcore vegan it could not be too terribly cringey.

[mad_martha]

I ... don't feel that this can go well. And while I recognise all the flaws with the books (I'll just say it - they were very much of their time), I first read them during a very difficult period of my life, so my relationship with them is complicated.

I'm normally pretty good at handling the inevitable disconnect between the written source material and the screen version, but on this occasion I don't feel I could deal with what will inevitably be significant differences. I mean, let's be real. I truly doubt this is going to be done with the kind of sensitive and loving care that was lavished on Good Omens.

I foresee some pretty radical changes, if only to make it more relevant to a modern audience, and that begs the question of whether it will still be the same story at its heart when they're done.

[thene]

I first read them during a very difficult period of my life, so my relationship with them is complicated. <--this is the biggest mood... I wanted to slap Van the whole time I was reading it, and yet.

It's weird, personally I don't feel that bad about a disconnect in terms of plot, just bc there are so many fic writers who've done great takes by deviating from canon. But yeah, I'm worried that an adaptation won't be sensitive to Van's voice and experiences.

And relevance - I don't even know how you get there. I always feel like the LHM turns on some very Reagan-era politics, with issues around denuclearisation and mutually assured destruction, not to mention mirroring the AIDS crisis. So why this, why now?

[mistyshadowsxx]

Personally, if Misty is breathing over their shoulders, there shouldn’t be too much going wrong, if at all. I think the problem when books are adapted to tv/movies is that there aren’t enough people around on the team/whatever that are die-hard fans that would literally skin the director alive if they changed to many details. I would love to see them get it right, and I hope to god they do.

Let’s just watch and wait.

[blue_jay_jay]

My first response was making noises only dolphins could hear. I'm excited, though my excitement is very tempered by worry over them fucking up a beloved series. And well, just because I see things a certain way doesn't mean others will. I am heartened somewhat by the way the article mentioned the people being handed the reins are fans, and like myself (and others) read the books at time when we were all Going Through It. But cautious about how very vague everything is, trying not to get my hopes up too terribly much, or at least tempering my expectations that it will surely take a year or longer before we even get some slightest production hints.

I think the Tayledras could been done well if they lean in hard on the fantasy elements. A more jungley and Naturalistic Lothlorien, Native actors but otherwise more like Hippie elves with cool contacts and fanciful wigs. They describe them wearing crystals and beads as well as feathers, and the feathers woven into their hair. So if it is fantasy colored feathers at the ends of braids and Not anything that resembles Honor feathers or a War bonnet it could be ok.

When I let myself hope for good things and I think about how the Moo-vee peeps wants things to be exciting, there is a hope I have that we could end up with something along the lines Gay-Witcher-With Magic-White-Horses and have all the Stony Tor, Shadowstalker, Demonsbane songs done up as proper stories with exciting fight-scenes. Inter-spaced with artful scenes of Sad Vanyel reflecting on his tragic past with intense flashbacks.

[thene]

Agree with most of this - I'm not American so when I first read the LHM twenty years ago I was picturing the Tayledras as Lothlorien elves as well - but - I do not think the big problem is going to be their look or the feathers (feathers in hats and hairwear are common in many cultures), the big problem is that their overarching narrative is that they live in horrible inhospitable landscape and then once they've made it better they graciously move out of the way to make room for settler colonists. I don't see how you un-racist that. Valdemar is, at its core, American fantasy, with the founding mythos of immigrants fleeing oppression, and the manifest destiny is baked into that.

Totally agree with you about Gay-Witcher - I don't watch TV but I can see that drawing in a more conventional fantasy-TV audience. Canon is kinda heavy on the regency family drama elements, and I don't think any of us would complain if they junked most of Promise and did something else instead lol.

[blue_jay_jay]

the big problem is that their overarching narrative is that they live in horrible inhospitable landscape and then once they've made it better they graciously move out of the way to make room for settler colonists. I don't see how you un-racist that.

Daang, I somehow never saw that connection, but now you mention it holy shit. I had kinda seen them as more like a magical Forest Service, keeping the weird magical animals safe in the Pelagris Preserve and not wandering into human-habitated zones. But I reread everything after the announcement (and also found this lovely group after a cruise through DeviantArt looking for fanart and one had a link to Snowblind in the comments) and I remember that "making the land safe" being mentioned as part of their goddess given geas. The first time I read as a teen I was too dang double happy to have not only queer representation but Native too, most if not all the fantasy I'd read at that point was resoundingly Eurocentric as well heteronormative.

My most recent reread is a me who now has been to university, a liberal art school that let me minor in Indigenous art, so I feel a little weird that I didn't pick up on that. I was always a little more focused on the part where they were having to pay back for their ancestors using magical weapons and devastating the land by cleaning up the ancient mess. I took it to be metaphor for cleaning up the mines and bombs from WWII and a bit of oil spills/nuclear meltdowns/other man-made disasters.

I've only caught the first episode of Witcher, and it seems like kinda my thing. Several shots of the bard wearing a fancy red outfit has perked up my ears. Also the way the internet has decided to ship the Witcher and the Bard has led to some fanarts that really give me double-takes, like to the point where the thing I think we may have to worry about is that people will think that LHM is some sort of fangirl Witcher fan-porn and not something that predated that whole franchise.

https://www.deviantart.com/maxkennedy/art/The-Witcher-Kiss-827619451

[thene]

Oh lol I kept doing that same fanart doubletake when Witcher was big a couple of years ago. I gotta say, if this TV show actually sees daylight it will be nice to have more fanart...

I took it to be metaphor for cleaning up the mines and bombs from WWII and a bit of oil spills/nuclear meltdowns/other man-made disasters. --This goes back to how so much of the series reflects the 80s fear of nuclear war and nuclear fallout; it's not like that threat's gone away, but it's going to be interesting seeing how they pitch that to a modern audience. And yeah, a lot of nuclear waste and other environmental waste is buried on Native land, this is still happening, in that light having a goddess given geas sure is a choice.